You're accepting independence up until the point where it's inconvenient to consider. I don't see that as any different than dissociating from the suffering of regular empathy grade thoughtforms (edited)
That would be the fantasy "force" I mentioned, it's not actually non-consensual. But again, actual non-consent is possible in a system just because of the nature of what a tulpa is.
(i mean in generla it's better to be dependent on rules you make than rules enforced to you by your parents or religion that you are draggin behind yourself for whole life)
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7:18 PM
(with rules in your tulpa system at least you have a choice)
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poochball
thats irrelevant to the convo if a tulpa says no back off and respect it it might be in ur head but morally speaking no still matters if they say no and u think its okay then id have concerns for u
This is very internally consistent of you, just as I expected.
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Ale𝕏andra 🍄🐈
If you have internal rules about treating headmates as independent and respecting that independence, there's going to be internal consequences to breaking those rules.
People are less likely to open up about sexual experiences with their tulpas but yes I have seen tulpas reject their hosts and vice versa, mainly things buried in progress reports, surveys, and just random forum posts - but you don't even need to look for sexual experiences specifically to understand that tulpas regularly have conflicts of interest and say "no," even if we're just talking about what type of music to listen to on a car ride and similarly small things.(edited)
I'm curious why you think that would be dangerous though? I really don't see how. The moment you start treating a thoughtform that way they just aren't a tulpa or headmate anymore. They're a toy.
Abvieon {Alex}
This circles back to the old debate of whether or not your beliefs about a tulpa dictates everything about what the tulpa actually is. I don't believe that your beliefs have absolute control over a tulpa. Maybe early on when they are forming, yes. But once they've got their own autonomy and sense of self - you no longer hold that type of control over them. For instance, if someone decides they want to consider their well-developed tulpa just an imaginary friend, does that instantly turn the tulpa into an imaginary friend and removes their sentience, autonomy, everything they've built up in their development? Nope!
There is nothing stopping me from being a monster to my tulpa other than empathy and a desire for something a bit more meaningful than a hateful relationship.(edited)
Abvieon {Alex}
People are less likely to open up about sexual experiences with their tulpas but yes I have seen tulpas reject their hosts and vice versa, mainly things buried in progress reports, surveys, and just random forum posts - but you don't even need to look for sexual experiences specifically to understand that tulpas regularly have conflicts of interest and say "no," even if we're just talking about what type of music to listen to on a car ride and similarly small things. (edited)
There is nothing stopping me from being a monster to my tulpa other than empathy and a desire for something a bit more meaningful than a hateful relationship. (edited)
I think that when this sort of thing happens it is very rarely an intentional ploy on the part of the host - nobody sets out to get up and say "I'm going to make a tulpa that loves me by default" - but everyone wants to be loved and appreciated - and the power of that desire is going to be present from day one in your interactions with, interpretation of, and dealings with a tulpa. These are deep - deep - biases that cannot be fought by ignoring them or "being a good person who would never do that" - they can only be fought by strict understanding that they're present and having strict structural limits that keep them from popping up.
Tulpas regularly have conflicts with their hosts, and v.v.
However, conflict is not necessary. You can have no conflict with your headmates and they will still be headmates. Total agreement is not the same as being a singlet.
Tulpas have feelings yes. I'm advocating respect for that if what you want is a tulpa. When you stop treating a tulpa like an individual they cease to be one as far as I'm concerned. Maybe that's odd since I seem to be an unusual amount of control over my tulpas when I wish to exert it, but I very much doubt if I wished to do anything malicious towards them it would result in anything other than bad times for them.(edited)
I think that the chance to encounter anyone willing to go to that length is very very rare and I'm not super concerned because I believe a combo of a) people willing to go there are rare, and b) if a person is willing to go there I will be able to detect that fact and deal with them appropriately.(edited)
"When you stop treating a tulpa like an individual they cease to be one as far as I'm concerned." This is the point of disagreement here. A tulpa existing in the first place implies a certain level of lack of control over them. And changing your beliefs regarding the tulpa doesn't suddenly change everything about them and everything your tulpa has built up over time. "My beliefs are the reality" only applies to very new/undeveloped tulpas who aren't quite tulpas yet. Sure you can assert that "Everything was a lie my tulpas were never real in the first place (Like some people do when they quit tulpamancy and just want to make thing less rough for themselves) But the tulpa is still there for the time being, just as they always were. If one of your tulpas decided you weren't real, would that automatically make it so? Would their belief have such power over you?
Deal with them as in stop speaking to them - ignore them - mark them off as disturbed in my mental checklist. I can't force them to behave in a different way, but I can control the things I can control.
Both are kind of bad in my mind - but I will basically judge an individual on if they are acting in line with how an individual with some semblance of empathy would behave.
7:40 PM
If they're not in line with empathy - that's across the line. It's too vauge and blurry to give any hard rules because everyone's different and has wildly different motivations and drivers
But I mean yeah I'd be very concerned about the morality of anyone who went through with something despite their tulpa clearly saying no. It just would never be taken seriously by most
Abvieon {Alex}
But I mean yeah I'd be very concerned about the morality of anyone who went through with something despite their tulpa clearly saying no. It just would never be taken seriously by most
Look I'll be blunt, it should be no surprise that as someone with those particular tastes for BDSM that my thoughts and desires can often be dark. I certainly don't do anything to entities I consider independent. But I have no intention of extending empathy to all thoughtforms, advanced beings or not.
Ignoring that though, i find it extremely hypocritical to say "oh no don't rape the thoughtforms!" when you should be aware that every time you have ever so much as experienced catharsis or schadenfreude from someone else's suffering you absolutely have been rendering a thoughtform to toy with. Extend some self-awareness before you judge the desires of others.
7:47 PM
In fact, overextending empathy is how you get walk-ins.
Zen
Look I'll be blunt, it should be no surprise that as someone with those particular tastes for BDSM that my thoughts and desires can often be dark. I certainly don't do anything to entities I consider independent. But I have no intention of extending empathy to all thoughtforms, advanced beings or not.
Ignoring that though, i find it extremely hypocritical to say "oh no don't rape the thoughtforms!" when you should be aware that every time you have ever so much as experienced catharsis or schadenfreude from someone else's suffering you absolutely have been rendering a thoughtform to toy with. Extend some self-awareness before you judge the desires of others.
i never used a thoughtform or tulpa to have a wank as i respect them ill give u money for a sex doll if youd like just so u stop and i can have peace of mind
Zen
Look I'll be blunt, it should be no surprise that as someone with those particular tastes for BDSM that my thoughts and desires can often be dark. I certainly don't do anything to entities I consider independent. But I have no intention of extending empathy to all thoughtforms, advanced beings or not.
Ignoring that though, i find it extremely hypocritical to say "oh no don't rape the thoughtforms!" when you should be aware that every time you have ever so much as experienced catharsis or schadenfreude from someone else's suffering you absolutely have been rendering a thoughtform to toy with. Extend some self-awareness before you judge the desires of others.
Agree 110% Zen, and I think if you extended empathy to all thoughtforms you would be engaging in some very deep self-harm, not to mention entertaining intrusive thoughts in a very self destructive way.
Zen
In fact, overextending empathy is how you get walk-ins.
Yeah - you have to have some level of nuance and understanding and judge people for their behavior in cosideration of more than just one or two factors and certainly never with binary idealism.
Imagination is free reign when it comes to mental images, imaginary friends, whatever. An imaginary action that doesn't involve sentient beings should never be judged the same as that action IRL.
I think the imporant part is not the nature of the thoughtform - it is the nature of if the host expresses empathy - if you see a situation that you believe the host should have their empathy kick in and it doesn't - that's a warning sign.
Nobody - or very few people - structurally personify random passing thoughts or imaginary characters - their similarities in behavior in that they are "baby tulpa" is less important to me than the fact the host is displaying that lack of empathetic response.
Which - there are loopholes in my statement there that you might think "X is ok if the host just says they aren't tulpa" - but that's where you - as a person - must judge the other individual and detect that they're bullshitting you and apply common sense.
poochball
having sex with a loli tulpa is wrong and can be considered pedophilia
If that tulpa is in the brain of an adult they have the capacity to think and consent as an adult, regardless of what their form is. The form is just an avatar. Yes I know that littles exist but they are not what I am talking about here, those are typically found in DID systems and actually have the mentality of a child, so they are different
Abvieon {Alex}
If that tulpa is in the brain of an adult they have the capacity to think and consent as an adult, regardless of what their form is. The form is just an avatar. Yes I know that littles exist but they are not what I am talking about here, those are typically found in DID systems and actually have the mentality of a child, so they are different
Why is it important to you that I extend empathy to characters Reguile? Anyone who strongly structures and thinks about a character repeatedly is absolutely making thoughtforms, and possibly tulpa-grade ones. By that logic you think GRR Martin is a monster.
It's not important to me that you extend empathy to characters
7:54 PM
It's important to me that you * have empathy* and I can see signs that it's working in your behavior - you've demonstrated that pretty clearly based on a lot of stuff you've said in the past - so long as you aren't just lying - but I assume you are not.
I think I need to clarify what I mean by sentient. When I say that, I mean someone who is having an internal experience, who is aware and perceiving. A mental image conjured up for just a minute probably doesn't experience that. It's a philosophical zombie.
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